Valve Seat Grinding Stone Recommendations
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The seat grinder is hidden away in the cabinet. My question is aimed at those who have ground valves in their AC engines before: What type of stone did you use? I'm currently planning to order some general rough and finish stones since it doesn't seem like the WD-45 and earlier tractors used Stellite material, which is what I mostly have. Any tips from experience would be greatly appreciated on the best types of stones to use.
I purchased an old Sioux 645L valve grinder/refacer a few years ago and recently managed to reassemble it. My 1951 WD requires some valve and seat maintenance, and it seems to have seat inserts already installed.
1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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They might have information about this for you. Regards,
Chris
I would call Bill at Sandy Lake.
John,
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
Last time I did this, the valves were already in the head. I used some abrasive paste and a valve grinding tool and worked down the line. They looked good to me.
D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
Different diameter wheels can fit into the seat, so ensure they match and check different angles for the top and bottom cuts on the seat. John, the wheels come in coarse, medium, and fine types, similar to the paste you use for lapping to finish. The grit for cutting the seats or valve faces depends on their condition. Usually, a medium or fine wheel is enough to remove a couple of thousandths for truing up.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
What Steve mentioned is correct, and I'd add that when grinding the seats, you'll quickly notice if a coarse stone is required. I usually start with a fine stone and go more aggressive if necessary. If the seat is soft, a finish stone works quickly, but a hard seat will take much longer. Additionally, the Souix should have a degree mark offset by 1 degree on both the seat stone cutter and the valve grinder angle.
"LET'S GO BRANDON!!"
I'll order general-purpose rough and finish stones and some for 60 or 30 degrees to narrow the seat width if needed. The intake seats seem like they only need a touch-up with the finish stone, but I may need to use the rough stone on some of the exhaust seats.
Thanks for the tips, everyone. From what I've read, seats cut directly into the cast iron of the head should grind easily with a finish stone. I have all the manuals for my Sioux equipment, which are helpful in detailing the specific stones for various engines. However, seat inserts (presumably harder) are a bit of an unknown. Fortunately, Sioux's chart provides the correct stone diameters. There are several stone materials available now (such as for Stellite, ruby, cool blue, etc.), so I'm curious about any preferences.
1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
Kansas99 wrote: Exactly what Steve said, and I'd add that you'll quickly know if you need a coarse stone when you start grinding the seats. I begin with a fine stone and go more aggressive if needed. Not sure about AC, but if you hit a soft seat with a finish stone, it'll clean up quickly, whereas a hard seat will take a long time. Also, the Souix equipment typically has a degree mark 1 degree different (e.g., 45 degrees) on both the seat stone cutter and valve grinder angle.
Yep, the seat grinder dresser is marked at 46 degrees for stone cutting, and the valve grinder chuck at 44 degrees (probably the same 1 degree off for 30 degrees valves, although I haven't checked as I don't have any). The AC manual specifies 45 degrees for everything, while other engine manuals specify a 1-degree interference fit. To be safe, I might adjust slightly with +0.5 and -0.5 degrees to ensure tolerance at 45 degrees.
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It'll be a learning process, but I think it's something I can handle for most older engines. New valves are affordable for some, not so much for others, but often the seats aren't beyond repair.
1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
Look up Goodson, they offer all sorts of valve grinding stones and accessories. I prefer the white stones for Stellite because they are backward-compatible and work on various materials. The trick is getting the right sizes that fit perfectly.
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. Stock rebuilds to all-out pullers!
Thanks, Ed. This time, I'm going with Woodward/Cylinder Head Supply but did find Goodson, Regis, and Beam Equipment as great sources of valve/seat grinding parts. It's impressive that these companies keep these machines operating after Snap-On bought Sioux and ceased service support.
1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
Christmas in May? My grinding stones, fluid, etc., order came in. Guess I better order the valve guides so I can work on the seats.
1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
Anybody grind their own valves and seats?
Anybody grind their own valves and seats?
Model T Ford Forum:
Forum 2008:
Anybody grind their own valves and seats?
By Michael J McCrary on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 09:49 pm: I cannot find any place that rents this equipment. I've never done it personally, but watched my dad do it when I was a kid. I didn't want to pull the engine and haul the block to a machine shop. Is there an economical, yet quality way to do it at home? If so, where and how much? Thanks, Mike
By Stan Howe on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 10:04 pm: YUP!! Look on eBay or around antique shops for an old set of hand cutters. They work as well today as they did then. Grinding the seats came along when inserted seats were added to blocks. MOST, not all, T engines still have original cast iron seats. You can recut the seats, have new valves ground at a shop, or buy a new set for less than $60.00. With a bit of effort, you can do a valve job on your engine and have the tools to do it again. I bought a cutter set for five bucks years ago. It does a fine job, although I now use a Lisle set that cuts all three angles in one pass. NUWAY makes a set as well, but it's pricier. Before grinding the seats with a hard seat grinder, practice on an old block first. There's more to it than meets the eye. Cut a narrow seat, lap the valve with fine lapping compound, and set the clearances.
If you want to grind your own valves, look for an old Black and Decker, Sioux, or Snap-on Valve grinding machine. They are inexpensive nowadays because few grind valves on modern engines; they just replace the valves. New 350 Chevy exhaust valves cost about five bucks each, so you can't pay a machinist to grind them. You can buy a valve grinder for around a hundred bucks. Find one with an attachment for grinding the stem end. I bought an old Black and Decker for ten at an auction, and I believe it would work just fine. I'm planning to use it to build a drum grinder someday.
By Bob Gruber on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 11:02 pm: You should find someone with a seat grinder to come to you. Where are you located?
By Jem Bowkett on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 11:34 am: The big mistake people make is grinding away to get rid of the pitting, ending up with a wide seating. You want a line no wider than a pencil. If you can't find the 3-angle cutters, cut the valve to three angles. Without a proper valve machine, Murray Fahnestock recommends using a drill chuck and a hand file. Email me for any questions. Here's some reading material—high-tech and low-tech!
By Jem Bowkett on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 03:08 pm: Murray Fahnestock, Model T Ford owner—essential book.
By Michael J McCrary on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 04:09 pm: Thank you all. I wasn't aware that the seat should have three angles. One link shows it clearly. I might have a tool but not sure of its capabilities. My son used it on his old Scout and said it was slow but worked fine. Thanks to Jem and others. Stan, I wouldn't know the tool if it was right in front of me. I don’t particularly like eBay but if there's a specific seat cutter brand to look for, I'd pursue that.
By Richard Gould on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 06:04 pm: Michael, I just ordered a seat cutter from Neway: two cutters (46 and 31 degrees, 60 degrees), expandable mandrels for different bores, and a valve refacer. It's not cheap, but I'm tired of poor work from local auto shops. http://www.newaymfg.com/
By Stan Howe on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 07:15 pm: My digital camera isn't working, but I have a couple of valve seat cutter sets in wooden boxes. If you want pictures, let me know. The Neway system is similar to the old methods but with modern tech. Cutting seats in your son's Scout was slow because International used hardened seats and Stellite valves. Cast iron seats in a T are quicker to cut.
By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 09:47 pm: I haven't tried it on a T valve, but I have a hand tool from Stens for small engines. It clamps the valve stem, and a handle slides on the stem with a cutter attached. You clamp it to a table, turn the crank, and press the valve face against the cutter. It works on Briggs engines. For a T, I had a buddy with a Souix valve grinder do the stems and faces. Then a machinist let me use a drill-like tool with a stone for seat grinding. It's not ideal, but lapping should solve seating problems. Swap meets often have valve seat tool sets.
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